0 Kudo
DUMMY!!
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 jtengfoto |
DUMMY!! |
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Posts: 157 (12/04/2006 08:12 PM) |
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NIKON KIU |
Re: DUMMY!! | ||
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Posts: 2170 (12/04/2006 11:59 PM) |
Hi John,
Do not believe what you see/read on ebay, I may be a dummy but this camera sure ain't  Kiu |
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Sover |
Re: DUMMY!! | ||
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Posts: 171 (12/05/2006 08:44 AM) |
Display models are not real Nikon dummies. They are engraved by camera shops for demos or display only.
Nikon made some early serial number F2 dummies because demand exceeded supply in the very beginning. Also, some sellers engraved late serial number working cameras with DUMMY to increase their price. Real dummies should have very early serial numbers. |
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Nikon HS Webmaster |
Re: DUMMY!! | ||
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Posts: 2141 (12/05/2006 08:55 AM) |
The origin of these "S" "display models" is unclear, but there are now at least two of them with identical engraving. This particular one has a "Tokyo" lens, normally too late to be supplied with the body.
Robert Rotoloni mentions one in his book, so we have known about this particular type for some time now. Who made them, as Sover points out, is not clear. But they are "Dummy" cameras in the sense that they do not function. The mismatched lens would not rule out Nikon making these cameras, but certainly is a factor in evaluating them. They have never sold for very much, because they may have been created after leaving the factory. |
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jtengfoto |
Re: DUMMY!! | ||
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Posts: 157 (12/05/2006 11:57 AM) |
Thank you guys for your input!! It's nice to have experts to guide us new comers!!
John |
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NIKON KIU |
Re: DUMMY!! | ||
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Posts: 2170 (12/06/2006 12:01 AM) |
Auction ended!!
Quote: Would you guys stop doing this!!  Kiu
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Nikon HS Webmaster |
off line | ||
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Posts: 2141 (12/06/2006 10:47 AM) |
Kiu you told him it was a fake...
He got off-line offers like crazy, clearly he took one of them. |
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NIKON KIU |
Fake Dummy | ||
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Posts: 2170 (12/07/2006 01:01 PM) |
I still think this camera is questionable, here is some of my reasons:
1) Why would a display camera be missing the Shutter release button? 2) Display cameras are suppose to be for "display" although this camera shows heavy signs of use! 3) Have you seen the "dislay model" engraving on this particular camera? My local trophy engraver does a better job, the "M" is clearly out of wack. 4) Why would the lens on a "display model" be heavily used with clear wiping/cleaning marks? 5) The fact that the lens is from the occupation era(1950-1951) and the camera is from 1952-1953 is a puzzle. It's so NOT Nikon to put out a "display model" without a shutter release button and have crooked engravings, how much effort does it take to glue in a shutter release button on a dummy? To me it's clear that some shop(may be even EPOI) butchered these camera, probably because they were either water damaged or not worth fixing, and made a crude "display model"....l in contrast look at at the pictures of the "dummy" S2s Bob has in his book of 1983 and you get my drift. At the end I like to add that I would be embarrased to "display" this camera! Speculations welcome, Kiu |
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Nikon HS Webmaster |
not a dummy it is a DISPLAY | ||
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Posts: 2141 (12/07/2006 10:58 PM) |
This camera is not a fake dummy, it is clearly marked as a store display model
It would not be Nikon Fifth Ave, since they did not sell early S cameras, actually they only sold S2s. As for the shutter release they are glued in on Dummy cameras, since there is nothing to screw them to, and are ofen missing. (Note below Wes mentions that Nikon in New York did sell S cameras during part of 1953). My assumption on use would be that the display was put into storage, very rough storage. Given all that, I never thought these came from Nikon in California or Japan, but display models were common in windows, as were dummys, and some large store like Altmans or Olden could have made them up from junk as you suggest. l in contrast look at at the pictures of the "dummy" S2s Bob has in his book of 1983 and you get my drift. Interesting point... since these dummys were assembled before the backs were machined. On the S, the interior rails should be missing, can't tell from the photos on ebay. |
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NIKON KIU |
Re: not a dummy it is a DISPLAY | ||
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Posts: 2170 (12/08/2006 12:40 AM) |
OK Fred, you got me!!
I wasn't thinking about the dates, you point is well taken about this happening before EPOI era!! But here is some food for your thought: www.phsc.ca/phsc_e-mail/Vol-3/PHSC-E-Mail-V3-11.pdf Here is the camera mentioned in Bob's book being discovered by a collector with an interesting story. I am not disputing the fact that these two cameras imply a certain trend rather that saying it is not a recorded event....as much as we can speculate we can never define the origin of this camera. It's true that both of us assume this was an American phenom but that argument is debatable!! The two examples that we discovered makes it more confusing than revealing! True that this is what I offer as my questionable "2 Cents" opinion on-line but what the heck, I offer more than you lurkers!! I like to ask Wes to give us more detail on the production date of the camera and the lens in question. Regards, Kiu |
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Sover |
Re: not a dummy it is a DISPLAY | ||
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Posts: 171 (12/08/2006 06:17 AM) |
Camera shops sold and still sell their display models cheaply when production lines finished. Owners of ex-display models are people who can't afford proper ones. Ex-display models were handled a lot by customers, sales staff and later owners. Hence display models are well used. Their values, as Fred said, is not high if not lower than a non display model.
Dummies, however, were/are never used and should be in near mint condition. They are very rare and hence expensive. Of course it's possible to fake them, but one would need to strip mint cameras and add the DUMMY engraving. (I hope I haven't given someone ideas.) |
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Wes Loder |
Re: not a dummy it is a DISPLAY | ||
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Posts: 322 (12/08/2006 09:05 AM) |
Fred, Ehrenreich took over the Nikon distributor & marketing franchise in January 1954. His company definitely sold the Nikon S for the last year that it was available. He sold a lot of them, which was a pretty good trick, considering that the Leica M3 was available that summer and offering serious competition for everyone. The S2, announced in December 1954, was not available for purchase until January 1955.
Ehrenreich's company was just Nikon, Inc. until 1962 when Joe made it a subsiduary of the new EPOI. Ehrenreich actually got the contract from Nippon Kogaku in the spring of 1953, when the old contract with OFITRA/Nikon Camera Company expired, but NCC continued to act as marketer until the following January while Joe got all his ducks lined up in order (so to speak). Cheers, WES |
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Nikon HS Webmaster |
Re: not a dummy it is a DISPLAY | ||
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Posts: 2141 (12/08/2006 01:14 PM) |
Wes interesting,
I looked though all my old ads and can find no ads from Joe on the S. The last ads I have are from US Camera, and Modern Photography in 1953, showing Nikon Camera Co in SF. I do have a Nikon S system brochure using the Nikon Fifth Ave address. The Jan 55 dealer price list I have, no longer lists the S as being available from Nikon Fifth ave. There must not have been Fifth Ave dealer price lists during 53, if SF was still selling them. Sover -- re Dummy cameas being mint, I have seen them in really awful condition. Since these cameras were made for display windows, not for display in the store, where customers would handle them, they often were discarded into rough storage after they were no longer in the windows. Dummy S2s are hard to fake, since the film rails were not finished, but on the S it would be trivial to fake. I think no one fakes them because of low value. Interestingly Leica Dummys have demanded rather high prices, but are more mainstream in that they have black painted internal lens surfaces etc. |
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Sover |
Re: not a dummy it is a DISPLAY | ||
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Posts: 171 (12/08/2006 04:42 PM) |
The few F2 DUMMYs (OK it's not spelled correctly) are in mint or near mint condition.
Even with rough storage, I think DUMMYs shouldn't be like a well used camera, eg with lots of brassing/strap marks etc. Maybe people exchanged better parts with rough ones? I for one have taken parts from an F display model. Guilty indeed. |
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Wes Loder |
Re: not a dummy it is a DISPLAY | ||
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Posts: 322 (12/11/2006 09:40 AM) |
Fred, 1954 was a transition year for Joe and Nikon, Inc. Nikon, Inc. ran its first full page ad for both the Nikon and Nikkor lenses following the same ad pattern as the old Nikon Camera Company on page 15, in April 1954 issue of Photography. [Note that Popular Photography was titled _Photography_ during this period.] It ran the same ad with added yellow color on the inside cover of U.S. Camera the same month.
Nikon Inc. began a series of one-column ads promoting the Nikkor lenses in June. I think this series was designed to draw attention away from the fact that the Nikon S had been made outdated by the new Leica M3, and promote one area where Nikon was definitely ahead. the 50mm f1.4 was promoted in June 1954, U.S. Camera, page 30. Full page ad on page 25, Photography, June 1954 for camera. 2/3 page ad, page 12, August 1954, U.S. Camera. One column ad for 85mm f1.5. page 34, Sept. 1954, U.S. Camera. One column ad for 28mm f3.5 page 10, Oct 1954, U.S. Camera. 2/3 page ad, page 131, Photography, November 1954. Finally: The famous blowout sale ad that appeared in both Photography and U.S. Camera in December 1954 as Joe cut the price on the Nikon in prep for the S2. Undoubtedly there were ads in Modern Photography during this year, but that volume was apparently missing when I did my research. Cheers, WES |
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nsp9107 |
Re: DUMMY!! | ||
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Posts: 985 (12/11/2006 11:43 AM) |
According to a friend of mine, the display camera model S, was mounted in a 11x14 wood display, the camera was in the center with info describing the camera printed on it. His camera store was in downtown Chicago. He still has the camera and i will post some photos later this week. the back is not original. He doubts the back was engraved dummy or display originally. The back was swapped out with another in the mid 70's.
jim |
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Nikon HS Webmaster |
Nikon S | ||
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Posts: 2141 (12/11/2006 06:27 PM) |
Wes thanks! When is that book of yours appearing? No one else has gathered this kind of factual information.
More ads than I have that is for sure, I am a little thin on S ads, since like Joe, I was never much interested in it. To me the S has always been a horrible little brick, while the S2 is one of my all time favorite cameras. I like the S2 much more than the M3. Go figure... |
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Sover |
True DUMMY | ||
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Posts: 171 (12/16/2006 03:39 PM) |
Here's a true DUMMY and it's mint as it should be. Can't image strap wear marks on this one.
cgi.ebay.com/Nikon-EM-cut...dZViewItem |
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Nikon HS Webmaster |
Re: True DUMMY | ||
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Posts: 2141 (12/16/2006 07:30 PM) |
That is an odd one, I have never seen a clear body as a cut-a-way!
I wonder who did it? Not Nikon, but as you can see from our cut-a-way page on the NHS there are many of them being made. cut-a-way nikons on the NHS |
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nikonnl |
Re: True DUMMY | ||
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Posts: 239 (12/17/2006 03:33 AM) |
As you can see at the pictures Fred added it is Evert van Stijn, a top engineer at the Dutch NPS-desk. He made many cut-a-ways of Nikon cameras, lenses etc. PL bought a few of them, but also collected cut-a-ways made by others. I don't think Nikon Tokyo ever produced these models themselves.
Nico |
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Nikon HS Webmaster |
Re: True DUMMY | ||
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Posts: 2141 (12/17/2006 10:17 AM) |
There were a few Nikon F cut-a-ways at the Nikon Showroom at Rockefeller Center on Fifth Ave in NYC. No one there seemed to know if they had been done by EPOI or by Nikon Japan. These F cameras sat there in a corner case for many years.
I owned one of the Fs from there. It was very well done, with all the cut optical surfaces sand blasted. It was the wind side of the body. Also on display was the disassembled Nikon F2 in a large flat table-case. There were never any dummies there that I remember seeing. |
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